Srila Prabhupada passtimes-31-Defeating the Mayavad philosophy

A new guest entered the room and Sabhapati introduced him: Professor Ian Watson, senior lecturer in Indian Philosophy at La Trobe University.

In sharp contrast to the courteous and gentle behaviour of the Rama bhaktas, long-haired and bearded Professor Watson was challenging and unsubmissive. On Prabhupada's request the professor described the details of the subjects that he taught. One section of the course, he said, was Eastern Religion and Philosophy, which he described, dealt with "things central to the understanding of Hinduism, such as karma, samsara, dharma and ultimately moksa".

Srila Prabhupada explained to the professor that Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy was above moksa, liberation. "Above this, the ultimate goal is prema, love of God." Prabhupada asked Professor Watson what he thought was the platform after moksa. The professor was immediately at odds.

Professor: There is no position after moksa.

Prabhupada: There is no? Jivatma is finished after moksa?

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupada: Jivatma is eternal. Do you accept or not?

Professor: It depends on what you mean by jivatma.

It was obvious that the Professor was a staunch proponent of Mayavadi philosophy, the very same insidious and misleading doctrine that he had warned the submissive Rama bhakta about only minutes before. Prabhupada briefly explained that according to Vedic literature there was God, the Paramatma and the individual soul, the jivatma. In response, the professor claimed that according to Hinduism the jivatma was equal to the Paramatma.

Prabhupada countered that they were equal in quality, but not in quantity. Since the word param, superior, was used, he said, there was no question of equality.

The professor was obdurate. "Jivatma and Paramatma are one."

"If they are one," Prabhupada asked the professor, "why is the jivatma under the control of maya?"

"We've forgotten," he replied.

"If you've forgotten, that means you're defective. If the jivatma equals the Paramatma, why should he have defective understanding? That means that he is not perfect. That means he is not Paramatma. Jivatma means sometimes in illusion, but the Paramatma is never in illusion. This is our Vaisnava philosophy."

"All right," said Professor Watson, "you could put it that way. But what was the jivatma before it became illusioned?"

"There was no ‘before' or ‘after'," explained Prabhupada. "The jiva is eternal."

Prabhupada compared the jiva souls to small sparks, whereas Paramatma was a big fire. Although the sparks have a tendency to become extinguished, the fire doesn't. Professor Watson was painfully frank. "That analogy sounds suspect to me."

"Why?" Prabhupada rejoined. "Analogy means similar points. When the points are sound, then analogy." Prabhupada described the analogy in more detail, but the professor was not in agreement.

"But you seem to be suggesting that each one of us are a little bit of God somehow."

"Yes," Srila Prabhupada said. "You can say ‘small God'."

"Is that illusion?"

"No. We have all got a little bit of power. Just like you have creative power. You can manufacture a 747. God can manufacture millions of stars and planets. You are a sample God."

It was clear that the professor took Prabhupada's humble presentation of the Vedic conclusions as a threat to his own ideas; his thinly-disguised envy and antagonism became all the more evident as the conversation progressed.

Professor: Do you think that no other movement is correct?

Prabhupada: Well, Krsna is the highest authority.

Professor: Do you think that your way is the only way?

Prabhupada: It is Krsna's way.

Professor: All right, but do you think that it is the only way?

Prabhupada: Yes. But whether you accept or not, that is your business.

Professor: What about Buddhist philosophy?

Prabhupada: What Buddha says, Krsna has already said. Buddha says ahimsa. Krsna says amanitvam adambitvam ahimsa ... Whatever others say, that has already been said by Krsna.

Professor: But of course not everyone would agree with that. There are many movements in the Indian circle...

Prabhupada: There may be many movements, but we do not care for that. We say ‘Krsna is the Supreme, you are subordinate, you surrender unto Him, you'll be happy'. That's all.

The professor was getting more and more agitated.

Professor: This is what I mean. Your movement is an exclusivist one.

Prabhupada: We may be fools, that is another thing. But whatever Krsna says, we take it as ultimate truth.

Professor: That's because Krsna is a spokesman for the Brahman.

Prabhupada: No! Brahmano hi pratisthaham. Brahman is dependent on Krsna. Krsna is not dependent on Brahman.

Professor: That depends on how you interpret that particular sloka, and how you translate it. As you know yourself, there are many different translations of the Gita.

Prabhupada: There may be different, but we don't accept them. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad Gita As It Is.

The professor was determined to argue at all costs. "What about other Deities?"

Prabhupada: They are servants of Krsna.

Professor: That sounds extraordinary to me.

Prabhupada: It is supported by all the acaryas.

Professor: But they don't support it in the sense that you're suggesting, namely that Krsna is the origin of all, above all ...

Prabhupada: We have got so many evidences, so we accept it.

The professor was at boiling point. "What you are saying is just not true. It is false."

Prabhupada raised his voice. "Don't say like that! We are not rascals! We are following the acaryas."

"Sankara doesn't say like that."

"Yes he does! You read his commentary on Bhagavad Gita. You see."

It had become too much for Guru Krpa Swami who spoke up, not able to tolerate the aggressive professor any longer. "What is your authority to sit here and insult our spiritual master? Our spiritual master has written 80 books. How many have you produced? Where are your disciples?"

The professor, face reddening, vented his anger at Guru Krpa Swami. "This is the trouble with your movement. It breeds people like you -- fanatics."

Prabhupada did not appreciate the man's criticism of his disciples, and responded by practically shouting.

"You are fanatic or he is fanatic? Who will judge? I say you are fanatic. How you can say fanatic? Ramanujacarya is fanatic? Sankaracarya is fanatic? Madhvacarya is fanatic?"

Guru Krpa, totally exasperated with the way the meeting had proceeded, gave Professor Watson a last warning: if he made any more disparaging remarks, he would have to leave. It was obvious that the situation had become all too delicate. Prabhupada deftly turned the conversation around, away from philosophy. After a few minutes, the mood of the discussion became light-hearted. Professor Watson calmed down, dropped his defensiveness and developed a friendlier demeanour. After the meeting, the professor took prasadam with the devotees. Finally, fully relaxed, he apologised for any misunderstandings and left.

Biographies and Glorifications of Srila Prabhupada-‘The Great Transcendental Adventure-‘‘The Southernmost Part of this Globe', Part I --Melbourne, 1976–Kurma das